258 | Mark James - The Brains Behind the Book ”The Interview Mindset”

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Welcome to positive talk radio evolving ideas, one conversation at a time, great guests dynamic stories and interviews plus new thoughts on a wide range of topics and concepts. I hope that you'll hang with me Kevin MacDonald, my friends. And of course, you as together we work to understand why we are all here. And what we can do to make our world a better place for all of us to be happy, be kind and live in peace together. Yep, it's positive talk radio.

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Another episode of positive talk radio. My name is Kevin McDonald. And this is, you know, like our buys podcasting channel. And I'm glad that you're here we got a great show for you today. And one that I think will help you attain the dreams that you have for your life and perhaps how to get there. We have a gentleman by the name of Mark James, he is the CEO and head bottle washer of higher consulting services. He's also got a new book out that came out in I think it was May 9. And it's called the interview mindset. And it's doing really well on Amazon. And it can help you well, you know, I guess maybe I should introduce Mark, and he can tell us how it can help you Mark, welcome to the show. How are you? Great to see you, Kevin, pleasure to be here. Well, that's awesome to have you here. And this, by the way is your second book, the first book came out in in 18. And that one has done wow, that's keys to the C Street.

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Suite. Yep, if I could read that would be good. And it's just a second language.

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And then the new book, which is just out, it's called the interview mindset. And you are a consultant of note and you help people get hired for the job of their dreams.

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And that's that is a that's a really cool job to have. How'd you get that job? You know, I walked in the shoes of an unemployed person one day, years and go 2530 years ago, and I realized the shortcomings of the kinds of coaching and the and the nurturing, or the training, the guiding of how to help people land the ideal job. And I decided that I was going to make it my life's mission to become the best possible career transition coach.

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This side of the equator?

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Well, that's a no small undertaking, by the way. Well, I mean, I just love what I do. And you know, they say if you love it, you never work a day in your life, right. And that's cool. It's not easy to attain. But I started my own company when I was 44, back in 99. And I never looked back, that's a commitment, you know that you can't just miss that corporate security blanket and try to you know, go back into the corporate job if you decide you want to run your own business. And that's what I decided to do, and I never looked back. Well, and one of the things that you do do is you help people learn how to interview well, and so that they can get the job that they're really after because, you know, in school, they don't teach you how to interview well. And, and and in college, and they don't, there isn't really a guide to get you to do that. And so a lot of us go through it blindly, and don't understand the consequences of our actions during an interview, and how it can affect whether or not we're going to get that job or not that we really want. That's right. Yeah, you know, there's a lot of time wasting mistakes and bad assumptions. Probably the number one mistake people are constantly applying for jobs online. I kind of call that looking at the candy in the window. And you can see all you want but you can't touch it and you never know who's looking at you. When you submit a resume. And then all you sit down as you wait, you cross your fingers and you hope the phone's gonna ring and invariably it does not happen.

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One time I was looking for a job as a as a food service salesman. And when I went in for my interview with the

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food service sales manager, and

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he showed me on his couch where a stack of resumes that were probably two feet high.

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And he said look at all of this stuff. And I said well

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Well, you, you pick me and he said, Well, you kept calling back. It was my only way I could get rid of you.

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You know, so So I know that there's, there's a real art form to understanding how to interview well, how to set up for the interview and doing all of that. And that's what this book is about. Right? Exactly. I talked about in Chapter 11, the six different mindsets that you could incorporate, it's almost like a make believe or pretend, one of them, excuse me is

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pretend you are a doctor, and the hiring managers a patient. Very cool. If you think this way, just maybe kind of understand what it's like, when you go to a doctor, because you're sick, the doctor is going to ask really good questions, so that he or she can determine what's wrong, right? Right. And in the interview is the exact same scenario, your job as the potential candidate or future employee is to understand what needs to be done in order for the problems and the obstacles and the issues to go away. And you cannot begin to sell yourself or, or talk about what great things you can do until you learn what's wrong. And that's the key. One of my mindsets is to pretend you're the doctor, and the hiring authority is the patient. So it's you're seeking pain, you know, you would ask a series of questions, what does this person need to do in the next six to 12 months, in order for you to know you've got the right person, you need to know what the deliverables are in the job. In order for you to talk about your past comparable accomplishments. It's a beautiful thing. And those accomplishments should be illustrated as bullets on your resume. So you've got all these great stories that will hopefully dovetail well with what the hiring manager in this case the patient needs in the perfect candidate for the job. So, you know, there's a lot of little things and nuances that happened during the course of the interview. But you have to be prepared to ask good questions, you have to be prepared to answer the tough questions, and talk about who you are your greatest strengths, your deliverables, your great stories, and examples that are relative to what the company needs this individual to be able to perform. You know, it's interesting, a lot of people go into an interview, and they just go into a blind, and they don't necessarily have they haven't done the research on the company. They don't know the job that they're going to interview for, or why they're looking for a new person in that job, or whatever. And so there's a lot of research that you need to do, before you even get there. Yeah, you need to know everything you can find out about the company, maybe even something they don't know about their own company. That's how much research you need to do.

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If they do ask you, so what do you know about our company, and you're not ready for that, you're gonna look, you're gonna look bad, you're not gonna get to the end. And the offer will not be coming to you. So you, you need to prepare, if you haven't done a mock interview, or your practice with answering questions with a friend, buddy alumni, somebody you trust, that can give you some honest feedback, it's highly recommended that you do that. So you're ultimately prepared and you're not caught off guard.

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You know, I always say an ounce of preparation is worth a pound of performance. And if you're not ready,

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you're going to wing it. And if you wing it, you know your competition, the other people who are interviewing for the role against you, if they're prepared, they're going to eliminate you from the process, not a good thing.

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Well, they are prepared for you to be prepared. And if you're not prepared, it looks like you're winging it. And if you're winging it, don't they put you into two different category? It's like,

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that's if that's how much preparation he puts into the interview. How much preparation is he going to put into the job? That's right. And you're also you're judged by the questions you ask. And as I mentioned with that doctor patient question is, you know, what does this person need to do to be successful? You are asking the hiring authority for a little bit of a roadmap so that you understand what they need. And then you can apply your your past comparable accomplishments, which, as I mentioned, are bullets out

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and your resume. But you're, you're you're speaking with a little bit more of authority, and the fact that you're able to do the job, because you're investigating what exactly needs to be done. And, you know, once you've satisfied that, you know, you've got to be prepared to answer questions like, tell me about yourself, like, why are you looking for a new job? A lot of people are sweating that kind of question if, if they don't have why I call it the rfl, the reason for leaving, or reason for looking for a new job. And if you're not ready with a really good, understandable, credible, believable answer, you're going to get eliminated if there's doubt, right. And these are all real big, important questions that are coming your way. And that's why you need to be ultimately prepared my book, The Interview mindset, helps get you ready for every single question, pretty much not every single one, but about the top 2025 questions that are coming your way. And it's all illustrated in the book and exactly what you need to respond. And the reason why the questions are actually being asked to begin with, right. So it's the ultimate guide to mastering your career. That's what this book subtitle is all about. It is important that you go, like we said, go prepared. Now it's been let me set this up. It's been many years since I've interviewed. So the last time I had an interview was like 19. Yeah, it was in the 19. So the 1990 something, and Facebook wasn't around and use.

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Social media wasn't really developed ads and stuff. Now my son tells me that because he's interviewed recently, that that comes into play. How has social media become a big deal and is part of the hiring process. That's a great point. It's chapter one in my in my book, where there's a reason for that, chapter one, it's called Get LinkedIn, or get left out. And now let me tell you that LinkedIn is the 800 pound gorilla. And if you're not LinkedIn, if you don't have a good optimized profile, you're going to get passed right over. If you don't have a really good professional headshot 76% of the people that are that are scrolling through, people will pass over anyone that doesn't have a headshot, you also need to have a good headline banner. And don't make it about job titles and previous company names, you need to personalize it, you need to really set the stage for your category of expertise, what you deliver. And LinkedIn is a great way to not only resource companies and people to try to get connectivity internally. Okay, but it's also excellent for being found. recruiters use LinkedIn exclusively as their database. And the reason why is because it's mainly kept current by a lot of the users, right? It's when you get a new job, what's the first thing you're you thinking about you better do is update your LinkedIn profile, right with your new job. And that's why it's such a great database for companies and recruiters to find new people can't stress it enough. That's why it's chapter one in my new book, do you have to be careful about what you have posted in the past on Facebook and some of the other

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we call it digital dirt. It used to be called, you know, where you're dancing on a table, you know, down in Cozumel, Mexico, and you know, you don't you don't really monitor that stuff, but companies can find it. Recruiters can see it. You want to be professional, you got to be careful what you're putting in and posting out there. I would say that, you know, your your number one social media tool is LinkedIn. It's great for job search. It's great for consulting. It's great for companies and recruiters to find quality people. But I will tell you this, the number one way for anyone to find a new job is through an internal referral. In other words, my daughter, her name is Kelly. She, she's part of a company called Salesforce, headquartered in San Francisco, right? Salesforce one of the top 10 places to work in the world. And they get hundreds of 1000s of resumes every year. She got found by a recruiter at their headquarter has

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He is scrolling through people on LinkedIn, he stops on her because her profile is optimized. It's really well defined. And she has a good story and all of her jobs, and her extracurricular activities and college, volunteer work, everything was really done well. And they called her and said, Would you like to interview with Salesforce? And she was like, holy cow. And she got the job. This was back in 2015. And she's been promoted three times, she's, she's doing great. But what happens at Salesforce is they know their people know, good people. So what they do is they offer a bounty. Anyone that refers an employee who refers somebody they know, that gets hired, that employee gets a $2,000. Bonus, wow, that's substantial. Because that is the number one way for companies to hire the best people is through their own employee internal referrals. So let's look at it from a candidate or a job seeker point of view.

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Job seekers need to identify their friends, their trusted people that they've worked with, before they went to school with and study where they're working, and ask them if they would be so kind to introduce you to a department manager, or someone that's related in their division or their department or their their function and discipline, because an internal referral is a great way to get a new job. Fabulous tip for the day is focused on internal referrals. makes all the sense of the world because people

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tell you it's story about

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Salesforce, I went to her website the day before yesterday, and day before yesterday, because I was looking for specific, specific services, I could always tell a good company because a lot of times you can go on their website, and you put in your, a little bit of your information and stuff. And, and but nobody ever calls you back.

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This particular gentleman called me, text me, called me again, I wasn't available yesterday called me again this morning. And so we hooked up and I told them what I was looking for it he said, That's not exactly quite what we do. But let me send you some information. Now, what's it going to cost me thing but so there are professionally run company, and they do great work, and they don't leave any stone unturned. They want to make sure that you get the best information that you can use to do whatever you need to do with your business. So I was really impressed. That's why they're the number in the top 10 places to work. And it was rated in the top 10 by the employees, which says a lot, right, so but you know, target companies having a good selection within the industry or two industries, maybe three that you're looking at, you got to identify 10 to 20 companies and in each industry, and then research these companies, go online, look on LinkedIn, and also look for people who are working there. And maybe you're connected in a first degree contact with someone on LinkedIn that has a job at Salesforce. And now you say hey, I remember this person, maybe you reach out and you connect with them. And you say, I would love if you could get me an introduction and a referral. Rather than you just applying through the HR portal and submitting your resume and you don't even know who's looking at it, work through people you know, and trust that you've got that relationship with, and then you're getting an internal referral. And your chances of getting a job are accelerated in a great way as opposed to just being one of four or 500 people who submit a resume into a job posting

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isn't a true and correct me if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that if you want to go get a job at a particular company, you want to try your best to bypass human resources to get to a department had a department manager, somebody who is a decision maker, who can then help you then reverse engineer it and go through human resources that way is that is that an appropriate way to do it? Yeah, I mean, human resources are designed to do one, one or two things they they are there to help and facilitate the hiring process. And they post an ad or some sort of a job description. They get hundreds of resumes. They're inundated. They really don't have the ultimate decision making ability, right unless it's for their own department, but

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The key is, as we've been talking about, work through people work through relationships, always try to get to the highest person in the food chain within a company, and start at the top and work your way down. And as you get into a hiring process, eventually it'll get turned over to human resources, who are responsible for putting the offer together, and the benefits and delivering that. And it's all been pre approved by somebody else, right? So all I can say is, it's not like you're bypassing but

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you know, it's a black hole, if you just keep sending a resume into a company website, it's a black hole, and you don't really know who's looking at it, and who's considering you and whether they have any authority to hire you.

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You know, one of the things I like about what you do is that it's not like people are just coming to you and saying, I want this, I'm sure there are some people that come to you that really don't know what they want to do, and how their skill set can be applied to the workplace that can make give them the passion that they want to be able to do that for a long time, you've got some tools for people to access don't, I mean, you've got many options to generate revenue

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of the full time permanent job with w two with benefits. That's number one.

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You know, you've got to know exactly what it is you're looking for. And what makes a difference, what inspires you. I had one client that I coached, and he was in the ophthalmology industry, and, you know, with

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eye, eye issues and people that that had

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disability, vision disability, and I said, How did you get in this industry? And he said, both my parents were visually impaired throughout my entire upbringing. And I always noticed how much they suffered. So I made it my life's mission to get in that industry and make a difference in people's lives. And that was my inspiration. And I said, My gosh, that is a terrific answer. If you should ever be asked as to what your why is, your why you got into what you do, why you do what you do, is an excellent way for you to inspire A hiring authority, in an interview, to say,

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This person is an outstanding individual, they understand exactly what they what they want, and why they do what they do. And they obviously would make a good addition to the team here. And that's, it all starts from within, and you got to look inside, it's not just a job, you know, job stands for just over broke, you know,

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you got to be looking for a career not a job, what's what's going to make a difference. And that's how you really start to, you know, stair step, you know, into higher level jobs as you start to progress. And then there's executives that are already at that level. And sometimes things change, right. And they're out of a job because of a merger or acquisition. I coach a lot of executives in transition, that's been my niche. And they come to me, because they haven't had to look for a job in years. And now all of a sudden, they're out the deck chairs have been rearranged. And, you know, they come to me looking for answers. And we literally have to break down and, and create a strategy. Exactly what it is they're looking for the industries, the kinds of companies the products, the services, the annual revenue, defining, you know, how big is the company, number of employees, it's the smallest of details. And that's how we create the roadmap to executing a campaign. It's, it's, it's gotta happen in that order. Because if you go out and do Ready, aim, fire or fire Ready, aim, you're gonna get what you deserve, if you don't know what you want. And if you're not planned out, I would think that somebody has been an executive, and they're, like, over 50, or they're 55, or whatever, they want to continue to work. But it would be it's very difficult to number one get an interview, or because they think you're an executive and you're probably going to cost too much and, and is that how you coach them to so that they don't,

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so that they can be

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be more real as far as what they can offer? And well, you know, sometimes people will get stuck and they'll go after a lower level job. And that's a pitfall that's a trap. Because

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if you're starting to settle for less, that's a that's a red flag and HR

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in anyone's mind, if you're going after a lower title, the problem with overqualified people is you make too much money, they can't afford you. And the position is graded in a different range of salary. So what happens is if, if you try to do that, you know, they're going to, they're going to know that if even if they did bring you on board at a lower level at a lower salary, you're not going to stop your job search until you find what you're looking for and be paid what you're worth. So essentially, you perpetuate the rejection, by trying to go after something that is less than what you maybe you did 10 years ago. And that's a problem with with executives that are in transition. Today, I say, stay the course, try not to settle for anything less, you know, the price of gas and housing and everything keeps going up. And the cost of living is is not going down. So you need to maintain your cost of living and maintain your salary. And your job search should be an extension of your career into a higher level. So you got to really discipline yourself to go after the right jobs. And sometimes it takes somebody like you to help us be disciplined. Because, yeah, I hold people accountable to make sure that they're they're doing the right types of activity, they're going after the right jobs. And they're doing the required number of hours, I can tell you the average job seeker is probably only doing 15 hours a week on their search efforts. And you need to double that up and minimum of 30 hours a week, if you want to create a pipeline of opportunities, and really have choices that you can choose from rather than just the first job that comes along, which, by the way, 50% of the people that choose quickly. And and they they make a decision to join a company very quickly. And too soon, in six months or less, they're out looking for a new job again, because they didn't hold themselves accountable. If they didn't have a coach, by the way, but they didn't pay attention, they were blinded by getting on the payroll, and they ignored some of the red flags. That wasn't the ideal job. So you got to be careful

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as that is so true, because you can end up in the wrong place. And if you don't do your research, it could be a company that philosophically and their culture doesn't work for you happens all the time. So I always say interview the company and interview some of the people that have worked, either currently, or formerly worked at the company. And you can find these people on LinkedIn. That's what makes LinkedIn such a great research tool. And folks out there listening, if you're if your profile is not 100%, and you need to go and really beef it up, make sure your summary or your about talks about what you believe in you. You have the latitude and the leverage in LinkedIn to personalize what you feel even quotes. Like one of my favorite quotes is job security is the ability to secure a job. How about that it's one of the chapters in my book, there's a lot of good things that are written in that chapter, that will be immediate implications you can you can implement those tips in the book almost within the minute that of reading it. And that's This is all I want to do is share this, this knowledge is knowledge transfer to help people learn how to conduct a professional job search campaign.

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You are really plugged into the industry. And because of that, I got to ask you this question, because a lot of people you know, you've heard of the great resignation, I'm sure.

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Yep. And in your opinion, what is that? What's driving that? You know, people will get to a point where they're not happy at what they're doing. There was a poll on the Wall Street Journal that

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over 76% of the people surveyed, would leave their job tomorrow if they can find something better. So there's a lot of job dissatisfaction. Wow, some of the younger workers.

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Again, I don't want to pigeonhole or say which generation but we kind of have an idea. They get a little, you know, complacent. They, you know, management's not been trained, sometimes they're they're working in a company without a really good strong vision. There's not a lot of commitment and

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And communication is very poor. So people just,

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you know, they give up and they just pay, you know, even the good ones sometimes will get frustrated, the good employees, the ones that really care.

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So there's an initiative that's going on in companies, and they're calling it the great retention. So, you know, yeah, it's the opposite of the great resignation. So how are they retaining their good employees? And are they paying them a decent wage? That's, that's equitable and fair, compared to their competition? And are they training? Training is a huge, huge advantage that companies that take the time and, and really invest in their employees, terrific way for you to develop your own questions when you're in the interview is, you know, what happens to an above average performer in your company? Because, you know, you don't want to be sitting in the same job for 10 years, right? So if you're performing well, what happens to someone who doesn't above average performance in their job? Great question. Indeed, indeed. Because sometimes I would think that a high performer, if they're not rewarded with either performance bonuses, or pay raise, or a better, a more sophisticated job, that they are a higher level job, that they'll go somewhere else, because they can supply and demand, you've got it.

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The guy that is just shuffling along, doing the bare minimum, he'll stay forever. And if that if you got a bunch of them, you're in trouble. I'll tell you what, the best companies in the world, the top 100. They're, they're there for a reason. Because they take they love their people. There was a book written back in the 80s, or the 90s. It was called love them or lose them. And I'll tell you, that is so true. Today, that book should be on the bookshelf of every HR manager and hiring manager in America.

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It's, it's vital that you take care of your good people, because it takes no I can't remember the name of the author, but it's out there. Yeah, I'm gonna write a new book on that. I think that could be your third book, it could very well be a lot of them removed. And part two.

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Now are you going to be you've got the interview mindset. And you are successful author, your you are a top selling author of two books. Is there a 13? Yeah, as we got a lot of people asked me about what's a good recruiter strategy. And I didn't put a chapter in my current book on that. So I was thinking of carrying on the theme of the mindset theme and, and call it the recruiter mindset. So that people can kind of get an idea how to work effectively with executive search firms and an Executive Research consultants and recruiters. But, you know, I do a blog, my blog is called the higher report. It's on my website, higher consulting.com. And I put a lot of extra stuff that didn't make the book. Some of it is excerpt from the book, but it's, it's the higher report blog, and I love it. And I, I I've updated quite a bit even since my book came out, and I post a lot on LinkedIn. So if you're, if you're following me on LinkedIn, you'll see a lot of my innermost thoughts on what it takes to manage your career.

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That would be a great resource for someone to, to really figure it out, because you know, you've only got so much time to get the job that you really want and, and to grow with it. And then makes it really can make it really tough for folks. So the interviewer mindset, by the way, you just mentioned your website, I'm gonna say it again, higher consulting.com and IR e just like it is on my screen. Yes. Now do you, coach people virtually? Do you need to see them in person? Or how does go working with you work? So I've coached people all over the world from Sydney, Australia, London, Dublin, all over the country, domestic US, even up in Canada.

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So do you geographically it has been terrific to do distance coaching, which has been around for many, many years. And most of it was done via phone, you know, prior to zoom and everything kind of coming to light due to the you know, the pandemic which caused the lockdown and all the working remotely, has become very much in favor. I think it's here to stay. It's not going anywhere and CO

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Watching just like this in a zoom, or Google meet, or Microsoft Teams, this works beautifully. I can do really good interview training via via Internet just like this. You and I haven't a conversation and going through interview questions and listening to what what the answers are. And then we break it down, critique it, if they do a great job in the answer, don't change a thing that was perfect. Or here's a better way or try to avoid cliches like what I bring to the table. People say that a lot drives me nuts, by the way. So I I'm very direct, and I don't beat people up, but I, I let them know, Hey, you got to you got to rethink the way you're delivering some of your answers. You know, like, what happens when somebody says to you, what's your biggest weakness? Right? Isn't that the dreaded question? It's actually not that hard to answer if you're prepared for it. You know, you talk about a lesson learned. I used to be, you know, not really good at this. And I've changed it. It's not a weakness anymore. But it was a lesson or a mistake, and things that I've improved on over the years. And you talk about it, because nobody's perfect. You all everyone out there listening. You all have something you can work on. Right? That's not a strength. So talk about it. Be humble. You know, humility is a very

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intoxicating thing. Companies don't want it a know it all are egotistical nightmare. Individual that that has a real arrogant attitude. That's, that's not going to get you anywhere. You know, be humble, be thoughtful, be kind, you know, be, you know, genuine. That's the key. That's what companies want. Right? They, if you were a hiring manager, you would want to hire that kind of person to Oh, yeah. You nobody wants to hire an egotistical maniac, especially if they're going to be in management.

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They could destroy you, their whole department in a matter of weeks. Well, and it's a turnoff. It's difficult to work with somebody whose ego enters the room before they physically walk through the door. Right? It's so true.

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I got it. I got a million of them. I'll be here all night.

Unknown Speaker  37:26  
Order the VLANs. Great. And tip your waitress, please. Would you talk about the predictive index and how you utilize it for helping people get better jobs and understand who they really are? Absolutely, I got my first exposure to predictive index was back in 14. And I took the PII we call it the PII. And it's a six to 10 minute online assessment. That's a survey, not a test. And it yields an incredible amount of information because you're literally selecting characteristics, adjectives, attributes in a screen by checking a box with your cursor, and you submit it. And that's, that's your true self. And then you do it one more time. And it's basically the mindset that you're thinking is what do people expect from me in a work environment, and the report that it delivers is, is nothing short of phenomenal, because it's been around since 1995, I got 1955, scuze. Me. And it's it was used for talent selection, and determining someone's needs, drives and behaviors, and how they would perform, and how they would interact and communicate with people within an organization. And I've been a certified partner since 2016. I joined up and I love this tool, I use it for coaching. When I'm recruiting, I use it for recruiting and hiring, talent selection, leadership development, it's kind of a Swiss Army knife of all the assessments out there, it's the one that offers a lot of unique value and tools, and can't say enough about it. And so you utilize that, and give that to your clients. And then you can sit down with them and, and talk about everything that has to do with what they're trying to accomplish. Yeah, and it helps me understand what makes them tick. Right? What makes them successful. There's 17 different patterns that they can fall into one of 17 that they would fall into and each pattern is basically kind of a discipline or function within a company. And it's almost like looking in the mirror Kevin, in fact actually probably send you a pie if you've not taken it. Maybe you I think you have in the past maybe not

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
but it's it's it'll blow your mind. Because how does it do that in six to 10 minutes? Yeah. So, yeah, well, the test that I took way back when if this goes back 40 years was

Unknown Speaker  40:15  
a successful a career assessment test. And the results came back that and it really proved to be true that I was in the top 50% of salespeople. So if I went after a sales job, I would be adequate. But okay, but I was in the top 1% of management candidates. So I that's really proved to be true over my career. You're an extrovert, I'm an extrovert, right? It the people that are introverts, what I coach them that they need to push themselves, okay, you need to break out, you need to kind of, you got to get out to that networking event, you got to introduce yourself, you got to be you got to force yourself to get comfortable and push yourself. Extroverts, like you and I, I coach extroverts all the time, I asked them to control themselves.

Unknown Speaker  41:11  
Because they can steal the conversation, you and I could, we could be like a boxing match going back and forth, trying to insert our thoughts and justify the tone of our voice. And, you know, because we are, we have got a gift of being able to communicate very comfortably. But we can steal conversations, we can intimidate the introverts. The key here, get the introvert talking, ask them an easy question. So what do you do? How did you find that job? You know, what's, what's the vision of your company? How are things going? Get them talking? You know, once you get an introvert talking, you know, it's kind of like creating a monster, they start getting comfortable and relaxing. And then the conversation will shift back to you or me? And they'll say, so what do you do? Mark? What do you do Kevin? And now you've got them right where you want you get to introduce who you are and what you do, and talk a little bit about your expertise and wisdom and, and then you thank them and say, Hey, I really liked our conversation, I'm going to send you an invite to connect on LinkedIn. And then you know, if you're at a big event, you don't have a lot of time for one to one. But you can always set that up with LinkedIn, either via zoom around the phone, or if they're local, you can meet them for a cup of coffee at Starbucks, right? It's the way it is the world revolves around meeting people and communicating constantly. Two things. First of all, if you are an introvert, do you? Do you suggest that somebody go take a course like Toastmasters or something like that, so that they can learn to get comfortable speaking in front of people? Yeah, extroverts fig probably would be a natural at that, but it's the introverts that need to get, they need to get brave, you know, they need to get, you know, geared up to be able to talk in front of a group. That's kind of difficult, right, I've talked in front of hundreds 250 I think one time, and I just very comfortable because I knew what I was going to talk about, right? I know my material. But for for, you know, the Toastmasters is a great way for you to break free of that fear of speaking in front of a group. And it can help for sure there's a Toastmasters chapters all over maybe several in each major city, that you can pick from that are nearby where you live, but it's a good way to get out. But, you know, look up meetings and mixers. Look up your chapter industry chapter associations, find out when they have their monthly meetings, and just pay a fee to go to the breakfast or the evening mixer and, you know, bring a you know, stack of business cards and introduce yourself, you know, get your feet to the fire and just practice and get more comfortable. That's the key.

Unknown Speaker  44:18  
You know, talking about extroverts, you know, one of the things that that I learned long ago is that you know, cuz sales guys, generally speaking are pretty much all extroverts. And they're used to talking to people. Yeah, it's part of the part of the job description. And what I found is that a lot of guys, and I'm sure you probably have a chapter in your book or the next one that's coming about this is the art of listening.

Unknown Speaker  44:45  
Absolutely nonverbal communication. i There is a whole section in neuro linguistic programming. It's the art of nonverbal communication and listen to this is a this is probably

Unknown Speaker  45:00  
A really interesting little statistic, only 7% of communication are the words coming out of my mouth. You've got listening, eye contact, facial expressions, hand gestures, body language, I think I mentioned that, and listening and the tone of your voice. If you end up on the download, it's more authoritative. If you end on the high note, you're seeking approval. All right.

Unknown Speaker  45:27  
Again, nonverbal communication represents 93%, of all, one to one or group communication.

Unknown Speaker  45:38  
So it's pretty, pretty amazing. By the way, I've, you know, I've been running around with and talking to a lot of actors and stuff. And, and I personally think that taking a course in in

Unknown Speaker  45:54  
improvisational drama, would be a great way to break out of your shell. Yeah, I mean, you know, it just takes a mindset, it takes a discipline, and, you know, accountability, to get out there and, and really,

Unknown Speaker  46:13  
shake hands, learn about the person you're talking to first, get them talking about themselves. And then be prepared to introduce yourself and tell them a small little story about who you are, what you're doing. If you're in transition, looking for a job, you're talking about your ideal role, your maybe have your top three, maybe four or five target companies that you're looking at, and you want to name them by name, don't just say pharmaceutical industry or technology or engineering, you want to name names of companies, so you can be more effective when people hear the name. They think, oh, wait, I know somebody that works there, my neighbor, my best friend, my college buddies, a director over there. And if they like you, and maybe they, you know, do that internal referral, that's where you come back to that, that friendship, that relationship driven job search. Have you done a study on on if somebody works with you how they perform in the interview, and they get, perhaps they get a better job, or they get higher pay increase? People go in, and they're, they're being evaluated for a job in the interview, and then the light bulb goes on, and they go, you know, what, we think you'd be better fit in another role, which happens to be, you know, higher level, because you get your foot in the door is the key. Right? Right. Let me go in and make a name for myself. And let me show you who I really am. And then let them kind of noodling around and figure that out. But it happens a lot. And sometimes Kevin, companies will create a position, a new position, based on the talent that's sitting across the desk. It happens. It's not unusual. It used to happen a lot more. You know, back in 1918, and 19. Companies couldn't hire people fast enough. In fact, I'll tell you, the three fastest growing industries in this country are data analytics, artificial intelligence, and cybersecurity. They are on fire. They can't for every, for every job opening, right? There's probably every company is hiring. There's not enough people for each job. And so they're always canvassing, they're always looking. And they always use their internal bounties. Some of the companies are using it to pay their employees a bonus for internal referrals. I can't take if anybody comes away from this, this podcast today. Just write down internal referrals, put it on your refrigerator, chalkboard for the grocery list, seek out internal referrals.

Unknown Speaker  49:11  
That will work by the way, we were talking with Mark James who's the CEO of higher consulting services, and he's got the book, the interview mindset, The Ultimate Guide to mastering your career. go to Amazon is doing really quite well on Amazon. Or you can, you know, go to Barnes and Noble if you want to go to a brick and mortar and you can order it from them if they don't have it on the shelf and all of that. So it's just getting into the libraries locally here in San Diego, but you know, it's available on Kindle. You can also get it in paperback hardcover, and it's just been released on audiobook just last week. Yeah. So I had got it recorded, and it came out beautifully. So if you like listening to books through your

Unknown Speaker  50:00  
her cell phone while you're driving, there you go. There. Yeah. And if somebody wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to do it? You know, LinkedIn is a good way to follow me. And, you know, you can, I mean, I try to know who the person is, you know, when I connect with people. But if you use this podcast, as a lead in, it'll give me a, you know, at least a reference point as to where you're coming from and how you heard about me, that would be a good way. And you can go to my company website, which is higher consulting.com. And you can say, you know, go to the contact page, send me your info, and, you know, let me know what's going on with your youth, your career. And if you're stuck, and you need help, I try to do as much goodwill Pay It Forward advice as I can. I've been pretty busy lately. But, you know, I set time aside each week to talk to people that are not clients of mine. But, you know, again, I hope the phone doesn't start ringing off the hook, but it probably will. But, you know, again, I don't know what your reach is right now, Kevin, and, you know, but I am really open and I want to help as much as I can. Which I, which is awesome. And thank you for that. And I gotta tell you, you know,

Unknown Speaker  51:20  
there are people I'm sure in this world, that when you click as user as as doing the work that you do, I would imagine if somebody comes to you that you actually researched them, as well, to see if it's going to be a good fit. Yeah, you know, I mean, so I always say that the client needs to want to be coached, before I need to coach them. extense, they got to really be committed. And I use the old adage, the difference between ham and eggs. You ever heard that one, I have

Unknown Speaker  51:55  
the chicken? Well, the difference between ham and eggs is the chicken is a participant, but the pig is truly committed.

Unknown Speaker  52:05  
But that's the commitment. That's the commitment that I look for that I know that I'm going to be successful when they're really truly engaged, and they want to be coached. And that that makes when they're in I'm all in. That's how it works. And a 30 hour commitment to finding a new job is not an unreasonable thing to ask No, not at all. In fact, if they're not doing 30 hours a week dedicated to their search, if they're unemployed, especially if they're unemployed, they need to double up if they're not up to 30 plus hours per week working on networking, telling your story, getting on LinkedIn sharing articles getting visible, very, very important. Because it's the phone's not going to miraculously start ringing just by sending in a resume to a black hole. It's not nope, but never have never will never, never, never will. And, and my The only advice I would give is if you have an idea of what is being given a real quick example. And that is I was going to work for a brokerage company. And because they just picked up a new line it was on Natalie's in, in the Seattle area, and they have mayonnaise and salad dressings and stuff. So

Unknown Speaker  53:21  
I went to the store and I bought a jar of analiza mayonnaise, empty the jar of all the mayonnaise, I put my resume in the jar with a ball and stuck it in the front door before they opened. And and that change that made you know, he ultimately they didn't get the line. So they didn't hire the person. But he said, Have we gotten the line we would have hired you because that was really unique.

Unknown Speaker  53:46  
I heard a lot of different stories. I heard one guy that stood outside with a sandwich board handing out resumes as people were driving into the Superbowl.

Unknown Speaker  53:58  
And he would just have a handout, here's my resume and on a sandwich board it says talent for hire. And he probably had five job offers the next day because everybody thought it was pretty unique way of, of marketing yourself and getting out there. You know, sometimes that works. Sometimes people kind of go you know, it's a little gimmicky. But, you know, if you're if you're determined, and you're you're committed to getting into a specific type of company, work through people that don't give up at the first sign of adversity. Because there's a lot of incoming like waves on the ocean, you're going to be rejected, and you're going to be ignored, but you can't give up on that stuff. You just got to accept it. Move on. And just know that it's not about you people are busy. They don't have time to reply to everybody that wants to work there. It's impossible because they got jobs to do right. Because they're going after hard hiring authorities. You know, if they're looking for someone that you

Unknown Speaker  55:00  
Usually offset or they'll subsidize that out into the HR department. And now you got to deal with HR. But, you know, it's it's really what you do with the relationships you have. And I can't say enough, get LinkedIn or get left out. There you go. There you go, by the way, we've been talking with Mark James, I'm gonna set myself aside. And, sir, I want you to take a couple of moments to tell our audience anything that you would like them to know, before we go. So you know, I talked, I talked a little Kevin, it's a Plan B is the new plan A, okay, Plan B is the entrepreneurial track, there's a lot of opportunity out there to generate your own revenue stream, and multiple streams of revenue, there's nothing wrong with that, if you're getting 1090 nines at the end of the year, that's a good thing. It means you're working with companies as a consultant, or you're, you know, you're you're an expert, or you're good at something, and you're, if you're at that senior executive level, and you're, you're looking for a little bit more freedom and flexibility. I talk about this in chapter four, it's called Plan B is the new plan A, and it got me going when I was 44 years old, and I'm so glad that I started my own company, I'll never look back and say, I could have done something better. Because I love what I do. And, you know, you may find that plan B is a great opportunity for you. If you're frustrated. If you're, you know, not really happy with your career,

Unknown Speaker  56:33  
look at other people who are consulting, or have their own self employed type of role in their own company, and do an informational interview with them, and find out how they got to that point, and what it's like. So you can form your own opinion about whether it's right for you. That's great advice. Absolutely. Great advice. Mark James has been our guest. And I want to thank you, sir, for being here. And the interview mindset is the book, go get it. And you can also share this with some friends down the road, because this is going to help somebody who needs a job. And you can think and listen to it in its entirety at a positive talk radio dotnet and on YouTube and on Twitter, and on Facebook. So you can there's lots of resources for you to find, mark so that he can help you get the job of your dreams, which is what he is passionate about. And I want to thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Kevin. It's been a pleasure. And to all the listeners, Kevin does a great job and can't wait to

Unknown Speaker  57:38  
share, share that recording with people I know that may have not been able to tune in today. So great job, thank you for your opportunity to speak on your show. And if you got somebody that wants to you know, like syndicate broadcasts that nationally i I'd be interested in talking to them so So, but, Mark, thank you so much for being here. And And if you'll wait right there, I'll be right back. Okay. Hey, thanks for enjoying this episode all the way to the end. Please give us a like and subscribe to this channel. This has been a production of positive talk radio dotnet please visit our website oddly named positive talk radio.net For more details about us and our mission, which is to provide great positive programming designed to inspire us all. I'm Kevin McDonald. I'm proud of these shows, and I truly hope that you'll like them and share them with friends and family. So on behalf of our entire team, remember, be kind to one another because each other's all we got to

Unknown Speaker  58:37  
do